Preamble

[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair.]

Oral Answers to Questions — ROYAL AIR FORCE.

GROUP CAPTAINS (OPERATIONAL EXPERIENCE).

Mr. Stokes: asked the Secretary of State for Air what operational experience either the Duke of Hamilton or Lord Nigel Douglas Hamilton has gained to qualify them as group captains?

The Under-Secretary of State for Air (Captain Harold Balfour): The officers referred to are fully qualified by their Service experience for the rank which they now hold.

Mr. Stokes: Arising from the hon. and gallant gentleman's Reply, which is completely unsatisfactory, is he aware that there is considerable uneasiness in the Royal Air Force at the appointment of officers who have not more operational experience to such positions, and will he bear that in mind in making future appointments?

Captain Balfour: Both these officers served in operational units for some years in peace-time. The Duke of Hamilton is holding an operational post now. I am not aware that there are any misgivings on the matter, and I think my right hon. Friend and his Service advisers are really the best judges of the suitability of officers for particular appointments.

MR. H. W. CODD, NAIROBI.

Mr. Liddall: asked the Secretary of State for Air whether he has inquired into the case of Mr. H. W. Codd, of Nairobi; and what action he proposes to take?

Captain Balfour: Mr. Codd was engaged locally at Nairobi, and no information is available in my Department about the reasons for his discharge. I

am arranging for a report to be obtained. When this is received I will communicate with my hon. Friend.

AIRFIELDS (DEFENCE).

Mr. Mander: asked the Secretary of State for Air whether the appeal for volunteers for the defence of Royal Air Force aerodromes indicates any alteration in the present system or in responsibility; to what extent the work is undertaken, respectively, by Army and Royal Air Force personnel, and under whose command; and whether he is satisfied that, in the light of recent events, all possible steps have now been taken to repel airborne enemy attacks?

Captain Balfour: No, Sir. There has been no recent change of policy in this matter. With regard to the second and third parts of the Question, I would refer my hon. Friend to the answer given yesterday by my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister to the hon. Member for Bassetlaw (Mr. Bellenger).

Mr. Mander: Does it not follow from the recent appeal that there are, in effect, two bodies, one belonging to the Army and the other to the Royal Air Force, both engaged in some manner in the defence of aerodromes?

Captain Balfour: It also follows from the answer given by my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister that it would not be in the public interest or expedient to go into these detailed matters except in Secret Session, and the Prime Minister also said that he was satisfied that a clear-cut decision had been reached in connection with the arrangements.

Mr. Mander: Would it not be very much better to have one authority responsible for dealing with aerodromes, and not two?

Captain Balfour: If we were in Secret Session, I could no doubt reply to that question.

Major-General Sir Alfred Knox: Surely it is possible to ask who is definitely responsible, the Army or the Air Force?

Captain Balfour: As my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister said yesterday, the prime responsibility rests with the Secretary of State for War.

AIRCRAFT PRODUCTION (SUNDAY WORK).

Sir Francis Fremantle: asked the Minister of Aircraft Production what steps have been taken in accord with the latest recommendation of the Select Committee on National Expenditure in their Fifteenth Report, for the discontinuance of Sunday labour; and with what effect?

The Minister of Aircraft Production (Lieut.-Colonel Moore-Brabazon): Fulltime contractors to my Ministry have been notified that Sunday work should now be restricted to cases in which its continuance is necessary in order to meet emergencies. I have no reason to think that contractors will not comply with these instructions.

Sir F. Fremantle: Is my right hon. and gallant Friend able to say whether the majority of contractors agree with the Committee's view that on balance Sunday work is of no value?

Lieut.-Colonel Moore-Brabazon: It is a little early to determine that.

Mr. Gordon Macdonald: Will the Minister keep in mind that the cost-plus-percentage basis is an incentive to contractors to work on Sundays?

Lieut.-Colonel Moore-Brabazon: Yes, Sir

Mr. Thorne: Is there any truth in statements which are circulated that there is not sufficient material, and that this causes difficulties?

Oral Answers to Questions — NORTHERN RHODESIA (DEVELOPMENT).

Mr. Creech Jones: asked the Undersecretary of State for the Colonies whether the sum of £296,000 to be contributed by the Northern Rhodesian Government to the British Exchequer in 1941 can be treated as a trust fund for the economic and social development of the territory in the interest of the African people; and whether more funds can be made available for campaigning against the tsetse fly, disease, soil erosion and other ills that affect the African people?

The Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies (Mr. George Hall): The acceptance by His Majesty's Government of this generous gift will not prejudice the funds

available to the Government of Northern Rhodesia for the development of social services. In this connection I would invite my hon. Friend's attention to the reply which I gave to his Question of 11th December, 1940, in which it was stated that it had been decided to proceed in 1941 with the full programme envisaged under the five-year plan. Progress is, however, dependent not so much upon the availability of funds as upon the supply of personnel and materials. I may add that, in addition to making full provision for the five-year plan, it is estimated that by the end of the year the territory's surplus assets and the reserve fund will amount to nearly £1,600,000.

Mr. Creech Jones: Will my hon. Friend give special attention to this aspect of Colonial finance, as it is vitally important; and are steps being taken to build up reserves rather than to dissipate them, particularly in the case of Colonies for whose products the demand is likely to slump after the war, and where the social services at the present time are in a very rudimentary form?

Mr. Hall: In the case of Northern Rhodesia, the surplus has been doubled during the last two years.

Oral Answers to Questions — BRITISH GUIANA (MINING COMPANIES, TAXATION).

Mr. Creech Jones: asked the Under secretary of State for the Colonies on what grounds of public policy mining companies have been excluded from the Excess Profits Tax under Ordinance No. 1, 1941, of British Guiana?

Mr. George Hall: The gold and bauxite industries were excluded because they were already subject to special war taxation by way of export tax. Diamonds are also subject to an export duty, but no special war taxation is payable because of the unsatisfactory state of the industry.

Oral Answers to Questions — MALAYA (RUBBER ESTATE WORKERS).

Mr. Mathers: asked the Under secretary of State for the Colonies whether he is aware that the rioting last year on the Ladang Geddes rubber estate of the Dunlop Rubber Company, in the Malay State of Negri Sembilan, in which shooting by the police caused the death


of three workers and injuries to others, was due to a refusal of the rubber company to increase wages to meet the increasing cost of living; and whether, in view of the recent loss of life amongst workers on a rubber estate in Selangor, he will call for an immediate report upon economic conditions in the rubber plantations in Malaya, and indicate Government policy thereon?

Mr. George Hall: As the reply is necessarily long and contains much detail, I will, with my hon. Friend's permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT. I may, however, add here that, as I stated in my reply to the hon. Member for West Leyton (Mr. Sorensen), on 18th June, my Noble Friend has arranged for his Labour Adviser, Major Orde Browne, to visit Malaya in the near future, and the High Commissioner telegraphed that he proposes to discuss generally with him labour problems in Malaya in the rubber growing and other industries.

Mr. Mathers: Without going into details, may I ask my hon. Friend what the trade union position is? He has informed us that there is a trade union ordinance in operation. Is trade union bargaining a properly recognised feature in Malaya?

Mr. Hall: Yes, Sir. A trade union ordinance is in operation, and the bargaining strength of the trade unions depends upon the strength of the trade unions.

Mr. Creech Jones: Is not peaceful picketing prohibited under the ordinance, and is there not room for a considerable overhaul of the trade union organisation?

Mr. Hall: It is true that in some of the ordinances—I cannot, without notice, say whether it is the case in regard to this one—picketing is prohibited, but that does not prevent negotiation and bargaining such as suggested by my hon. Friend.

Mr. Sorensen: Is my hon. Friend now in a position to say when the report of this inquiry is likely to reach this country?

Mr. Hall: It is impossible to say. The Labour Adviser has left, or is about to leave, for Mauritius. We are hoping he will spend some time there, and we want a very thorough report on conditions there. We shall have to wait until Major

Orde Brown is in a position to let us have his report.

Following is the reply:

In November last the Government Protector of Chinese noticed signs of discontent among the Chinese labourers on this estate and notified the manager who, on 21st December, of his own initiative offered an increase of 2 cents on daily task rates plus a bonus on poundage with effect from 16th December. The labourers refused this offer and at their request the Protector of Chinese met their representatives on the estate when they demanded an immediate increase of 35 cents on daily task rates, viz., from 85 cents to 1 dollar 30 cents. In discussion they reduced the demand to 1 dollar 10 cents, but threatened to cease work if this was not granted. The manager considered the request unreasonable and the strike began on 23rd December. On 27th December the strikers at a further discussion refused the appeal of the Protector of Chinese to return to work pending proper discussion of wages, but it was eventually agreed that they should take their wages and leave the estate. They accordingly went on 29th December to a nearby village where some 900 established an organised camp. Intimidation had been practised to compel workers to join the exodus from the estate, and in the camp a Defence Corps was organized, while goods were levied from shops and subscriptions collected in the village. Workers were not allowed to leave the village without permission and men on bicycles were sent into the district, threatening physical violence to labourers continuing at work.

It was discovered that two of the leaders were agents of a local union which had been organized by the Malayan Communist party, and that they were being assisted by adherents of the Chinese puppet government at Nanking. On 31st December the police arrested one of these leaders and one member of the Defence Corps, but were attacked on the way to the police station by 500 Chinese armed with sticks, bricks, stones and bottles. The officer in charge of the police was himself knocked down and again hit as he was getting up. After repeated attempts to persuade the rioters to disperse and an ineffective charge by the police, the order was given to fire, one Chinese being killed and two subse-


quently dying of their wounds. At the time of the firing the rioters had increased to probably 1,500, and the police numbered 85, not all of whom were armed. The finding of the magistrate was that the police were overwhelmed to such an extent that the action they took was necessary. My hon. Friend will appreciate that the riot was thus caused not by the refusal of the rubber company to increase wages, but by an attempt to rescue an arrested political agitator. On the evening of the riot at least 400 of the labourers returned to work, and by 2nd January practically all the labourers concerned had also returned. The High Commissioner has reported the average daily earnings in this district to be more than double those at the beginning of the war and the increase in the cost of living to be less than 50 per cent.

Oral Answers to Questions — WEST AFRICAN TROOPS (PRIVATE CINEMAS, NAIROBI).

Mr. Edmund Harvey: asked the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies whether his attention has been called to the effect of colour bar restrictions in Nairobi in preventing West African troops, serving in the Forces there, from entering private cinemas; and whether steps can be taken by ordinance, or otherwise, to remove this colour bar discrimination?

Mr. George Hall: There is no general restriction on the entry of West African troops into private cinemas in Nairobi. Some films are, however, passed by the Film Censorship Board for exhibition to non-Africans only, in accordance with the Cinematograph Film Censorship Rules, 1930, which were passed because it was considered that certain films are not suitable for exhibition to African audiences. My Noble Friend is in communication with the Governor of Kenya, from whom further details are awaited.

Mr. Harvey: May we take it that the Government will use all their influence against the extension of colour bars there and elsewhere?

Mr. Hannah: Are these films entirely suitable for white audiences?

Mr. Hall: That is a matter which must be left to the Censorship Board, and that is one of the questions on which we are

asking for information. I want to assure the hon. Member for the Combined English Universities (Mr. Harvey) that my Noble Friend and myself are very concerned about this matter.

Oral Answers to Questions — SEYCHELLES (TAXPAYERS' REPRESENTATIONS).

Mr. David Adams: asked the Undersecretary of State for the Colonies why, in response to a reasoned appeal for certain urgent reforms from the Seychelles Taxpayers' Association, the Governor has returned an unqualified refusal without comment; and is he aware that such treatment of loyal citizens of the Colonial Empire, and the denial to them of representation with taxation, is likely to provoke discontent in that Colony?

Mr. George Hall: The Governor reported at considerable length on the representations of the Seychelles Taxpayers' Association, and his report satisfied my Noble Friend that his policy in regard to the matters raised was correct. I have no reason to believe that the decision on these representations will provoke discontent in the Colony. The membership of the Association, according to the latest figures supplied by them, is 129, whilst the population of the Colony is some 32,000.

Mr. Adams: Are we to understand that because this association is small it may be treated in a cavalier spirit, and will the Minister let me peruse the salient feature of the despatch referred to?

Mr. Hall: Yes, Sir, I should be very happy for the hon. Member to do so. If my hon. Friend will see me, I will let him look at the full report.

Colonel Arthur Evans: Can my hon. Friend indicate the difference between the burden of taxation per head of the white population of the Seychelles and the people of the United Kingdom?

Oral Answers to Questions — TRANSPORT.

LONDON PASSENGER TRANSPORT BOARD.

Mr. Parker: asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Transport when the vacancy on the London Passenger Transport Board, caused by the expiry of the appointment of Mr. Frank Pick, is to be filled?

The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Transport (Colonel Llewellin): When this vacancy on the Board appeared last year, it was thought to be unnecessary that it should be filled for the time being. The need for filling the vacancy is reviewed from time to time, but I cannot say at present when an appointment will be made by the Appointing Trustees.

WORKERS' FACILITIES, SOUTH WALES.

Mr. Ness Edwards: asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Transport whether he will inquire into the present inadequate arrangements for conveying workers to mines and factories in South Wales; and whether he will take steps so to reorganise transport as to enable workers regularly to attend their places of employment?

Colonel Llewellin: As my hon. Friend and I both know, communications between the different valleys of South Wales are in general difficult. Quite a number of persons are now taking longer and unaccustomed journeys to their work. I do not agree that there is any general inadequacy of transport in the area, but if my hon. Friend will inform me of any particular difficulties not yet overcome I will gladly see whether further transport cannot be made available.

Mr. Edwards: Is the Minister not aware that representations have been made, both in this House and to the Regional Commissioner and Traffic Commissioner in South Wales, that the position is still chaotic, and that many miners lose days each week because of the chaotic condition of the traffic? When is he going to take action in the matter?

Colonel Llewellin: I know that representations have been made to the Regional Transport Commissioner in the area. We have been in touch with him, and he has informed us that he is doing what he can to make things better. If my hon. Friend still thinks there are some cases where there have not been improvements and will let me know the particulars, I will go into the matter myself.

Mr. Edwards: Is the Parliamentary Secretary aware that representations have been made to other Ministries in an effort to get something done, and that we have been hammering at it for six months?

Will the Minister have an investigation made on the spot to see whether something cannot be done?

Colonel Llewellin: I hope my hon. Friend will tell me exactly where these places are, and I will go into the matter myself.

Mr. Edwards: Read the OFFICIAL REPORT.

Mr. Cocks: In discussing these arrangements in other parts of the country, is it better for a Member to apply to the Regional Commissioner or the Ministry of Transport?

Colonel Llewellin: I think it is better for the local interests to apply to the local Commissioner. If the local people cannot get it done, the matter will come on the plane where an hon. Member will take it up with the Ministry, and I shall be glad to look into it.

Oral Answers to Questions — MINISTRY OF INFORMATION.

PUBLIC OPINION (CANVASSERS).

Captain Lyons: asked the Minister of Information what salaries are paid to each of the 42 persons employed in canvassing public opinion; what action is taken on their reports; the ages of the youngest and oldest so employed; by whom they were chosen; and the number selected from the Central Register of the Ministry of Labour?

The Minister of Information (Mr. Duff Cooper): The salaries paid to the interviewers range from £5 to £6 per week, according to qualifications and experience. Their reports are sent in most cases to the Ministries which ask for them. I am not, therefore, in a position to say what action is taken on them. Their ages range from 23 to 53 years. None of them have been selected from the Central Register of the Ministry of Labour, but two have been selected from the Supplementary Register of the Ministry of Labour. The details of the method of selection of the other interviewers was given in my answer to the hon. Member's Question of 7th August, 1940.

Captain Lyons: Is it not a fact that the House of Commons can best reflect public opinion and that these people


might be better employed doing something else? Will the Minister wipe out the whole of this unnecessary organisation and apply the Concentration of Industry Order to it?

Mr. Cooper: This matter once formed a subject of Debate, when it was explained that the facts about which these people are asked to make inquiries by other Departments, such as the Ministry of Food and the Board of Trade, can be ascertained only by expert and immediate inquiry. They are not matters about which Members of Parliament are expected to exercise their minds. The facts relate to such matters as food restrictions and their working in certain districts about which the Food Ministry want expert advice. These inquiries, which are performing a very useful function, have caused no complaint during the last 12 months.

Captain Lyons: Does the right hon. Gentleman tell the House that these young men of 23, who ought to be somewhere else, are really the best judges on these matters?

Mr. Cooper: Perhaps the hon. and gallant Member has observed that they are nearly all young women.

CONFERENCE, CAMBRIDGE (PETROL FACILITIES).

Sir Irving Albery: asked the Minister of Information with reference to a recent conference at Cambridge addressed by his Parliamentary Secretary, what extra petrol facilities were offered to those entitled to attend; and the total number of units issued for this occasion?

Mr. Cooper: Petrol coupons were offered to members of local information committees who were unable, in a district in which cross-country train facilities are notoriously difficult, to make the journey by other means. Steps were taken to see that cars should be fully occupied. The total number of units issued was 196.

Sir I. Albery: Will the Minister see that petrol is always allocated effectively and that there is no waste?

Mr. Cooper: It is not my duty to see that: there is no waste of petrol, but I am sure the petrol used on this occasion was, in the opinion of those who took advantage of it, well worth while.

Sir I. Albery: Can the Minister say what steps are taken to ensure that coupons are not used for single individuals?

Mr. Cooper: I can give an example of one particular individual who refused to collaborate with the others, and accept the company of three other people in his car. He was refused petrol.

VISITS BY AMERICANS.

Mr. Sorensen: asked the Minister of Information whether he will sympathetic ally consider the possibility of arranging with appropriate American authorities facilities for visiting this country of several representative American writers, painters, editors, photographers and art directors?

Mr. Cooper: Yes, Sir, I am already taking such steps as are possible for this purpose.

Mr. Sorensen: Does the Minister realise that his statement will give great satisfaction both to American and British artists?

STAFF.

Sir Percy Hurd: asked the Minister of Information what are now the numbers of regional representatives and local in formation committees of the Ministry; what is their cost in salaries and expenses; and what is the total annual cost of the social survey service, including headquarters and region activities?

Mr. Cooper: The regional officers of the Ministry of Information number 13 and the local information committees 411. The costs to the Ministry for the year ending 31st March last were £7,457 and £3,641 respectively. The total annual cost of the War-time Social Survey for the year ending 31st Mar, 1941, was £10,273, including both headquarters and regional activities.

Captain Lyons: Does the Minister realise that an appeal is being made by the Minister of Labour to obtain the services of young women as well as men for really important national work?

SPANISH SECTION.

Captain Cunningham-Reid: asked the Minister of Information what experience has the head of the Spanish section of the Ministry of Information of the psychological angle from which Spanish people would regard current events?

Mr. Cooper: The head of the Spanish section is intimately acquainted with Spain and the Spanish people. He speaks the language fluently.

Captain Cunningham-Reid: Is it not a fact that the head of the Spanish section was formerly assistant keeper, second class, of the architectural and sculptural section of the Victoria and Albert Museum, and that he had had no recent experience of Spain?

Mr. Cooper: I think the fact that a man has been employed in a museum does not reflect adversely on his qualifications.

Miss Eleanor Rathbone: Does the Minister realise that it is more important where his sympathies lie, and that it is perfectly useless to appeal in Spain to the late supporters of General Franco, as they are thoroughly in sympathy with the Axis?

Oral Answers to Questions — TELEPHONE SERVICE (LONDON STOCK EXCHANGE).

Mr. Banfield: asked the Postmaster- General whether his attention has been called to the new rules of the Throgmorton Street Stock Exchange, the provisions of which will seriously affect the revenue of his Department; will he state the number of private telephone lines to be surrendered and the annual rents thereof; and what action he proposes to take in the matter?

The Postmaster-General (Mr. W. S. Morrison): I have seen a copy of the rules referred to. No private telephone lines have been surrendered as a result of these rules, and I have no ground for action in the matter.

Oral Answers to Questions — NORTH END HOUSE, FULHAM (REQUISITIONING).

Lieut. - Colonel Sir Cuthbert Headlam: asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Works and Buildings what capital expenditure has been involved to date in fitting up the premises at North End House for the refugees and their attendants, in putting up canteens, drainage and other works, and in pro viding special air-raid protection?

The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Works and Buildings (Mr. Hicks): The total expenditure involved

in preparing part of North End House for occupation by evacuees is estimated at £10,850. This covers furniture, blackout blinds and floor coverings; the erection of the canteen, provision of electric light fittings and other small services, and the provision of an air-raid shelter, including sleeping bunks.

Sir Percy Harris: Will my hon. Friend say how many people this building accommodates?

Mr. Hicks: I cannot say off-hand.

Sir C. Headlam: Does my hon. Friend not think it would have been both cheaper for the taxpayers of this country and safer for the refugees if accommodation had been found in the country?

Mr. Hicks: My Department was under instructions that accommodation must be found in a certain area and that it must be together.

Sir William Davison: Is some consideration being given now to a survey of the large number of vacant houses, which in many cases are next to one another, which could be used instead of displacing people who are employed in very important national work in the country?

Mr. Hicks: I can assure my hon. Friend that that question is being constantly taken into consideration.

Dr. Edith Summerskill: asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Works and Buildings whether, in view of the fact that some of the tenants of North End House, Fulham, are now faced with eviction by his Department for the second time in under 12 months, he will give an assurance that no more accommodation will be requisitioned in that building?

Mr. Hicks: Yes, Sir.

Dr. Summerskill: asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Works and Buildings whether he will take steps to ensure that the tenants of North End House, Fulham, who are soon to be turned out of their flats, will be compensated without delay for the costs of their move to other premises, in view of the fact that some of the tenants, who were evicted last August, have not yet been paid the costs of that move?

Mr. Hicks: Compensation under the Act of 1939 will be paid as promptly as possible on receipt of claims. Flats were requisitioned in August last from 13 tenants of North End House; claims for expenses have been received in 10 cases, and five of these were settled some time ago. The negotiations in the other cases have been protracted, but payments on account have been made.

Dr. Summerskill: Can the hon. Gentleman justify the action of his Department in turning out the occupants of a block of flats in a fairly badly blitzed area for the second time in order to accommodate other refugees?

Mr. Hicks: Of course, the answer is "Yes. I can justify the Department"

Sir Percy Harris: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that some of these officials are very autocratic in their ways?

Oral Answers to Questions — ROYAL PARKS (FISHING).

Major Sir Jocelyn Lucas: asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Works and Buildings whether, in view of the fact that bathing facilities are now provided in the Serpentine, he will now allow fishing on at least one portion of this and other waters in the Royal Parks since the fish at present serve no useful purpose, and permission would greatly add to the amenities of the inhabitants of the Metropolis?

Mr. Hicks: The Parks Regulations prohibit fishing in Hyde Park, Kensington Gardens, St. James's and the Regent's Parks. Subject to permit, issued free, fishing is allowed in Bushy and Hampton Court Parks. If there is a general public demand, I will consider whether certain sections of prohibited waters can be opened to the public for fishing, and will table amended Regulations to give effect to this.

Sir P. Harris: Are children not to be allowed to fish for sticklebacks in the Serpentine as they have done for centuries?

Mr. Hicks: I could not say what fish are in the Serpentine without notice.

Sir J. Lucas: Are there not large numbers of perch in the parks, and are there not many people who want to fish and are not allowed?

Oral Answers to Questions — CIVIL DEFENCE.

MENTAL HEALTH WORK.

Sir F. Fremantle: asked the Minister of Health what arrangements are made for mental health work among evacuated children and in bombed areas; and whether assistance will be given to the Mental Health Emergency Committee for this work?

The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Health (Miss Horsbrugh): Mental health work among children is a normal development of the mental health services and in particular of the school medical service with which child guidance clinics are associated in many areas. A number of hostels have been established for difficult children in reception areas, and it is desirable that in every Region some of these hostels should be earmarked for children requiring mental treatment and should be associated where practicable with child guidance clinics. A grant from Exchequer funds was made to the Mental Health Emergency Committee in respect of the year ended 31st March last, and application for a further grant is now under consideration.

Sir F. Fremantle: Does the Department recognise the value of the work of the health workers under this Committee, and will it give it further support?

Miss Horsbrugh: Yes, Sir.

EMERGENCY HOSPITALS SCHEME, LONDON.

Sir F. Fremantle: asked the Minister of Health whether effect is to be given to the recommendations 33 to 35 of the Select Committee on National Expenditure in their Fourteenth Report with regard to the arrangement and administration of the London sectors of the Emergency Hospitals Scheme?

Miss Horsbrugh: The extent to which effect can be given at the present time to the Select Committee's recommendations on the London sectors is being considered in conjunction with the several officers and bodies concerned. Certain rearrangements have already been made which will reduce the number of sectors by one as from next week.

Sir F. Fremantle: I hope the local authorities will also be brought into the


matter because of the very great overlapping that there is.

Miss Horsbrugh: Local authorities are being included in the discussions.

Oral Answers to Questions — BLIND PERSONS (FINANCIAL ASSISTANCE).

Mr. Lunn: asked the Minister of Health whether he is aware that a blind man, Thomas Haney, of 248, Sissons Road, Middleton, Leeds, who had a pension of 10s. a week and £1 13s. supplementary allowance, has had the £1 13s. stopped by the blind authorities because his daughter, aged 19, who had £1 3s. a week is now receiving £3 a week as a tram-car conductress; and whether it is with his approval that the household means test is still in operation in blind cases?

Miss Horsbrugh: Subject to certain statutory provisions the question whether financial assistance is to be granted to any particular blind person, and, if so, the amount of the assistance, is a matter for the determination of the local authority concerned, and the scheme under the Blind Persons Acts, which they adopted in 1938, does not require my right hon. Friend's approval. I understand that the withdrawal of the financial assistance previously granted in the case to which my hon. Friend refers is in accordance with this scheme.

Mr. Lunn: Are the whole of the blind persons in the country subjected to the household means test, and, if they are, is the Minister responsible or is it the local authority that is concerned?

Miss Horsbrugh: The Blind Persons Acts are administered by local authorities under separate schemes from the ordinary old age and widows pensions under the Act of 1938.

Mr. Lunn: Is it not time it was abolished and abolished by the Ministry?

Miss Horsbrugh: No, Sir. If the hon. Member will look into the scheme, he will see what the differences are.

Mr. George Griffiths: Does not a local authority scheme require the sanction of the Ministry of Health?

Miss Horsbrugh: I have said in the answer that work under the scheme administered by local authorities does not require my right hon. Friend's approval.

Mr. Griffiths: And the Ministry has nothing whatever to do with the stopping of this blind person's pension?

Miss Horsbrugh: Nothing whatever.

Oral Answers to Questions — CLOTHES RATIONING.

Mr. Hannah: asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he is aware of the hardship caused by the coupon sys tem to the lower-paid working-women and their families, seeing that buying material to be made up takes more coupons than ' purchasing the completed article; and will he permit councils of social service, and similar organisations, to buy remnants or seconds from the manufacturers without coupons on the strict understanding that they are to be used solely for the benefit of poorly-paid workers?

The Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Trade (Captain Waterhouse): No, Sir. I am not aware of any such hardship. The amount of material needed for any garment naturally varies with the style and size, but the balance of advantage is, for the garments usually made at home, somewhat in favour of the home dressmaker or knitter. It would not be practicable to restrict coupon-free sales of remnants and seconds to the lower-paid workers nor is it evident that their need for coupons will exceed that of other members of the community.

Mr. Hannah: asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he is aware of the concern felt by dressmakers that they can no longer obtain stiffenings or canvas without surrendering coupons, such materials having, in the past, been provided by them as a merely incidental part of making up dresses or coats; and will he take steps to enable them to secure, without the surrender of coupons, this essential ingredient of their work?

Captain Waterhouse: The exemption of these materials is being discussed with the trade interests concerned.

Mr. Banfield: asked the President of the Board of Trade whether, in his scheme for rationing clothing, he will consider


dungarees, women's housekeeping aprons and overalls as protective clothing for which coupons will not be needed?

Captain Waterhouse: The question of exempting certain of the more essential types of protective clothing from rationing is under consideration An announcement will be made shortly.

Mr. Jackson: asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he is aware that farmers have to produce coupons for muslin, which is used for straining milk; and will he take steps to get this article exempted?

Captain Waterhouse: The exemption of this muslin is under consideration.

Oral Answers to Questions — CONSUMERS' CREDIT

Captain Lyons: asked the President of the Board of Trade whether, in dealing with the question of the concentration of trade, he will examine how far the retail principle called "consumers' credit," has justified itself in the light of the position of the distributing firms and their related financing concerns at the present war period and state of employment?

Captain Waterhouse: I assume that my hon. and gallant Friend is referring to hire-purchase arrangements or similar method of obtaining delivery of goods before full payment has been made for them. In so far as such arrangements enable people to buy essential articles which they otherwise could not afford, they are clearly advantageous; but, in so far as they stimulate a demand in wartime for unnecessary articles, and thus lead to the diversion of labour and other resources from essential work, they are not to be encouraged. No doubt the Retail Trade Committee will consider any effect they may have on the special problems with which they are concerned.

Captain Lyons: I take it that the matter will be referred to that committee?

Captain Waterhouse: Yes, Sir.

Oral Answers to Questions — RETAIL TOBACCONISTS (SUPPLIES).

Mr. Thorne: asked the President of the Board of Trade what legal action is he proposing to take against firms or

shopkeepers that have been found with nearly two years' supply of cigarettes; and whether he has had any consultation with Mr. A. H. Maxwell, the Tobacco Controller, about the matter?

Captain Waterhouse: I am not aware of any such cases as the hon. Member mentions, but if he will let me have particulars of any cases he has in mind, I shall be glad to arrange for the Tobacco Controller to investigate them.

Mr. Thorne: I am not sure whether I have the newspaper cutting.

Captain Waterhouse: I hope the hon. Member will not believe quite everything he reads in the Press.

Oral Answers to Questions — BRITISH ARMY.

PERISHABLE FOOD (SURPLUSES).

Mr. Lipson: asked the Secretary of State for War whether he is aware that, when units leave a station, considerable stores of unused food are frequently left behind because the regulations do not provide for the return of food stores in excess of requirements; and will he take steps to prevent such waste occurring?

The Financial Secretary to the War Office (Mr. Richard Law): Instructions have been issued with a view to restricting demands for perishable foodstuffs to the daily requirements of units and to securing the underdrawal of items of a non-perishable nature of which a sufficient stock is held in the unit's store. There should, therefore, never be a surplus of perishable foodstuffs, and any stock of non-perishable items which might have to be left in store in the event of a sudden move should be reported by the unit for disposal instructions. If my hon. Friend knows of any case in which these instructions have not been carried out, I shall be very glad to look into it.

Mr. Lipson: I will inform my hon. Friend.

SHELL EXPLOSION, NORTH GLOUCESTERSHIRE.

Mr. Lipson: asked the Secretary of State for War whether he has considered a report from the coroner for North Gloucestershire of an inquest on six children killed by a shell explosion cen-


suring the military authorities for their disregard of public safety in leaving live shells on common land after firing practice; will he give an assurance that steps have been taken to prevent a similar tragedy occurring elsewhere; and will compensation be paid to the parents of the six children who lost their lives and to two other children injured by the explosion by which one lost an arm?

Mr. Law: I have called for a report on this case and will communicate with my hon. Friend as soon as possible.

Mr. Lipson: If the facts are as alleged in the Question, will consideration be given to the question of granting compensation?

Mr. Law: Certainly compensation will be considered if it is shown that we are liable.

REGULAR RESERVE OFFICERS.

Mr. R. Morgan: asked the Secretary of State for War whether full use is being made of officers of the Regular Reserve, who, since returning to civil life, have risen to positions of responsibility in business and elsewhere, but on returning to the Colours find themselves junior to Regular officers of many years less ser vice and experience; and whether, in view of the vital importance of ensuring that initiative and administrative experience are found among the senior ranks, he will take steps to have the records of officers of the Regular Reserve gone through, with a view to their advancement not being held up from a purely technical seniority point of view, if their records show that they are fitted for higher command?

Mr. Law: An officer's advancement to a higher post depends entirely on his qualifications for that post and not on his seniority. Full account is naturally taken of any special qualifications which an officer of the Regular Army Reserve may have acquired in civil life, and officers possessing such qualifications are invited to submit particulars.

Oral Answers to Questions — SCOTLAND.

CHILDREN'S CAMPS.

Mr. Welsh: asked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether reports have

been received recently from the medical officers of the camps provided in Scotland under the Camps Act, 1939; whether he can give any information from those reports showing the effect of camp life on the health of the children; and whether, in the case of the camp for Dundee children which was closed for some time, there was any effect on the physical condition of the children consequent on their absence from the camp?

The Secretary of State for Scotland (Mr. T. Johnston): Yes, Sir. I am glad to say that the quarterly reports submitted by the camp medical officers show that residence at the camps has had a markedly beneficial effect on the health and physical condition of the children, most of whom have gained in height and weight and have shown an increased resistance to infection. When Belmont Camp was reopened those children who returned were found to have lost in weight during their absence of three months.

WESTERN ISLES STEAMER SERVICE.

Mr. Malcolm MacMillan: asked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury the total amount paid to Messrs. MacBrayne's Company in respect of the Western Isles Steamer Service each year since the renewal of their contract; and whether he will give the amounts for different purposes separately, with the increases over the previous comparable periods?

Colonel Llewellin: I have been asked to reply. The subsidy of £60,000 per annum payable to this company under the contract of 31st December, 1938, was not related to particular services but was in respect of the general services scheduled to the contract as a whole, and it is therefore not possible to state how much has been paid in successive years in respect of the Western Isles Steamer Service, or to give the amounts for different purposes separately. The outbreak of war led to very considerable increases in the costs of running and to decreases in receipts, with the result that it became necesary to introduce new arrangements which will be expressed in annual contracts. The payments made in respect of the years 1939 and 1940 were £70,738 and £169,000 respectively.

Mr. MacMillan: Is the right hon. and gallant Gentleman aware that though the


subsidies and other payments have gone up, the service has deteriorated very markedly, and is he aware moreover that the freight charges have increased by a large percentage, out of all proportion to the excuses which have been used?

Colonel Llewellin: I am afraid the service has deteriorated, largely from the fact that some of the better steamers are doing what is really more important national service than taking people to and from the Western Isles, although that is important.

Mr. MacMillan: Is the right hon. and gallant Gentleman aware that there are very good reasons for these steamers going to and from the Western Isles at the moment, and that they are becoming more important every day? Service men by thousands are going to and fro and have a right to some comfort?

Colonel Llewellin: I appreciate that it is an important service, but some of the ships that have been taken over by the Admiralty are doing equally, and probably more, important work.

Mr. MacMillan: What about the ships that are and have been on the service for many years? Why should their service deteriorate?

STEAMSHIP "CLYDESDALE"

Mr. Malcolm MacMillan: asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Shipping (1) whether the certificate of the steamship "Clydesdale" to carry 168 passengers, contingent on the deck space not being otherwise occupied, has been reviewed in recent years in the light of modern comfort and safety standards, especially in view of the fact that steerage and deck cabins are now occupied by the crew; and whether he will investigate the records of the number of passengers and amounts of cargo carried nightly when this vessel was recently on the Stornoway—Kyle of Lochalsh run, especially on 24th May, and inform the House whether the certified maximum loads can still with safety be carried in view of the vessel's age and condition;
(2) whether, during the period of her use recently on the Stornoway—Kyle of Lochalsh run, life-jackets and other life-saving appliances on the steamship "Clydesdale" were sufficient, and so distributed on board as to be freely avail-

able to passengers; and whether he will take action in the interest of passengers and crew to ensure that the fullest safety precautions are always taken?

Colonel Llewellin: I am making inquiries into the points raised in these Questions, and will communicate the result to the hon. Member as soon as possible.

Mr. MacMillan: Will note also be taken of the representations which have been put forward now for the past seven years about the use of this steamer, which is in a state of senility?

Oral Answers to Questions — SCHOOL CHILDREN (CLOTHING AND FOOTWEAR).

Mr. Thorne: asked the President of the Board of Education whether he is aware of the long-standing necessity for steps to be taken to provide clothing and footwear for children who are unable, by reason of cost of proper footwear and clothing, to attend school, or to take full advantage of the education provided for them; and whether he will make provision to empower local education authorities to supply clothing and footwear to all necessitous children?

The Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Education (Mr. Ede): My right hon. Friend has no evidence that children are unable to attend school or to take full advantage of the education provided for them owing to shortage or inadequacy of clothing and footwear. Powers already exist for providing clothing and footwear for necessitous school children and my right hon. Friend sees no need to introduce legislation to empower local education authorities to make such provision.

Mr. Thorne: Is my hon. Friend aware that the information I have comes from a number of teachers who are engaged in the schools?

Mr. Ede: My right hon. Friend authorises me to say that if the hon. Member has any specific information or evidence on the matter, he will be very happy to consider it.

Mr. Hannah: Has not the National Union of Teachers taken up the matter officially?

Mr. Ede: I should like to see that Question on the Paper.

Oral Answers to Questions — BY-ELECTION PUBLICATION, GREENOCK.

Mr. Neil Maclean: asked the Prime Minister whether he is aware that an election sheet published in Greenock, on behalf of the Communist candidate, contains serious allegations against a prominent Member of the War Cabinet; that he is, or has been, seeking to have candidates nominated at all by-elections on a programme demanding an immediate peace with Germany; that this publication states that the source of the information is a speech delivered at a meeting in Glasgow by a Member of this House referring to proposals made to him by the Member of the War Cabinet at an interview last year; whether he will have this investigated; and whether he will inform the House of his intentions as to taking action in the matter?

The Prime Minister (Mr. Churchill): The Question refers to an account, published in a Communist circular, of a speech by the hon. Member for Shettleston (Mr. McGovern), relating to conversations with Lord Beaverbrook. Lord Beaverbrook received in February, 1940, from the hon. Member for Shettleston for exclusive publication in his newspapers an account of the so-called Tavistock Peace Plan. A conversation followed on 5th March, 1940'. The hon. Member for Shettleston invited Lord Beaverbrook to support the Plan. A written statement seeking support and signed by Lord Tavistock was submitted on 6th March. Lord Beaverbrook replied on 8th March, 1940, as follows:
DEAR LORD TAVISTOCK.
Very many thanks for your letter.
I have never felt any anxiety in regard to the wisdom and the certainty of continuing the war.
I am a supporter of Mr. Chamberlain, and I believe in his war policy. If Peace becomes a possibility, I feel sure he will do everything m his power to promote it.
At the same time I-am much obliged to you for writing me about your negotiations.
Yours sincerely,
BEAVERBROOK

Mr. Maclean: Is no further action to be taken in regard to the very serious allegations that are contained in that by-election sheet, which is circulating very extensively in the West of Scotland, as it is causing considerable disturbance there over what are the opinions of men

like Lord Beaverbrook with regard to the war?

The Prime Minister: As to legal action, I can say nothing, but it is very common in by-elections for a lot of untruthful and tendentious statements to be put into circulation, and I should myself doubt whether any importance should be attached to such malicious vapourings.

Mr. Garro Jones: Could the Prime Minister state whether these statements are made by way of allegation or by way of collateral security for the policy which was advocated by the Communist party until a few days ago?

The Prime Minister: Wide as is the sphere over which I am called upon to cast an eye, I am glad to say that it has nothing to do with the point mentioned by my hon. Friend.

Mr. McGovern: May I ask the Prime Minister whether any attempt is being made to suggest that the statements are untrue? While I have no objection to any explanation being given, the statements appearing in that sheet are completely truthful.

The Prime Minister: I am assured that they are untrue. The hon. Gentleman, I understand, was present at a private conversation and more than a year afterwards gave his own version of the conversation which passed. In those circumstances I should think the utmost distrust should be placed upon any statement of the hon. Gentleman's.

Mr. Maxton: If this were to become a matter of public controversy—personally, I do not see the importance of it now—the word of the hon. Member for Shettleston (Mr. McGovern) would not go unsupported.

Mr. Maclean: In view of the statement that has been made by the hon. Member for Shettleston (Mr. McGovern), I think this matter ought to be further investigated. I do not see that the Reply of the Prime Minister covers the points that are in my Question. I was willing to accept the Reply given, but after what has been stated from below the Gangway I think the matter requires to be further investigated. I have asked for that investigation in the Question, and I want to know whether it will be undertaken.

The Prime Minister: No Sir, I see no need at all for further inquiries. A newspaper proprietor sees all sorts of people and hears all sorts of views, because that is his business, and I suppose that from time to time he gets ill-used by inventions being put about as to what has passed at private conversations.

Oral Answers to Questions — SUPPLIES AND WAGES.

Mr. De la Bère: asked the Prime Minister whether he will find time for a Debate on the Motion standing in the name of the hon. Member for Evesham relating to supplies and wages?

[That this House, noticing the Government's new restrictions on the consumption of clothing, and accepting this as a war time necessity for the purpose of ensuring the maximum of war material being provided, is disturbed' over the Government's attitude in allowing wages to be increased thereby distributing more purchasing power, which conflicts with its attitude in the reduction of purchaseable goods, emphasises that this policy is one of definite inflation, and that the policy of the Board of Trade and the Ministry of Labour are inconsistent; recalls the Chancellor of the Exchequer's announcement in his Budget speech in which he stated his intention to stabilise the cost of living out of the national revenues, and his expressed hope that wages would be stabilised; notes that his hopes have not been fulfilled and' that daily increases in wages are taking place without any Treasury intervention, and that, in view of the fact that the Government now buys over 60 per cent. of the total national production, they are the chief sufferers from the price increases due to wage increases; further notes the Government's proposal to protect the private consumer from paying equivalent prices by means of subsidies; and urges on the Government the necessity for bringing the policy of the Minister of Labour, the President of the Board of Trade, the Minister of Supply and' the Chancellor of the Exchequer into line by the substitution of one comprehensive and consistent policy for the welfare of the country during the period of hostilities.]

The Prime Minister: I regret that I can hold out no hope of a special opportunity being found for discussion of the Motion standing in the name of my hon. Friend.

Mr. De la Bère: Is my right hon. Friend aware that if two Departments are to treat the matter in this way the result must be completely fallacious, and will he urge upon the Departments the necessity of co-ordination and the impossibility of separating the two questions?

The Prime Minister: Those principles are so well understood that they need no further inculcation.

Mr. De la Bère: But the old policy still goes on.

Oral Answers to Questions — FLEET PROTECTION (CRETAN WATERS.

Mr. Stokes: asked the Prime Minister whose fault it was that no adequate air protection from the island of Crete was provided for the Mediterranean Fleet operating in Cretan waters; and whether, in view of the heavy losses subsequently sustained on account of this neglect, any disciplinary action has been, or will be, taken against those responsible?

The Prime Minister: I have nothing to add to my statement of 10th June.

Mr. Stokes: May I ask the Prime Minister whether the fact that the Mediterranean Fleet would probably have to act in those unfavourable conditions was foreseen by the Admiralty or the Commander-in-Chief of the Mediterranean Fleet, and, if so, what response was given to their representations?

The Prime Minister: I have said that I have nothing to add to my statement of 10th June.

Mr. Stokes: Is the Prime Minister aware that a great number of people are completely dissatisfied with his statement?

The Prime Minister: A certain class of people.

Oral Answers to Questions — FOOD SUPPLIES.

FISH (MAXIMUM PRICES ORDER).

Mr. Lipson: asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food whether he can now indicate his proposals for the control of the price of fish?

Mr. Barnes: asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food whether he is now in a position to announce controlled and reduced prices for fish?

The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food (Major Lloyd George): An Order prescribing maximum prices from producer to consumer will be made this week, to come into operation on Monday, 30th June The prices prescribed will be on a substantially lower level at each stage of distribution than those now ruling.

Mr. Lipson: Were those prices arrived at in agreement with all the parties concerned?

Major Lloyd George: My hon. Friend will "remember that my Noble Friend was not satisfied with the prices put forward by the trade. The present prices are prescribed by him. The Order will be published this week.

Mr. Robertson: Has the Minister the power to requisition steam trawlers? If so, will he consider requisitioning the entire steam trawler fleet to fish for the State under the management of a panel of experienced trawler owners?

Major Lloyd George: My Noble Friend has such power, and, if the necessity arose, he would have no hesitation in using it.

PIGEONS (CORN).

Mr. Hannah: asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food whether, in apportioning corn to owners of pigeons, he will see that members of the National Pigeon Service do not get a share which is unfair to the small breeder, but that all who are willing to provide suitable birds for Government use shall receive equal treatment?

Major Lloyd George: I cannot undertake to provide rationed feeding-stuffs for pigeons other than those owned by members of the National Pigeon Service. The constitution of that organisation and the number of birds to be maintained are the concern of the Service Departments.

Mr. Hannah: Will not the Government allow the small men equality of treatment with the more wealthy ones?

Major Lloyd George: There is equality of treatment.

Mr. De la Bère: Is the Minister aware that he promised to look into the matter still further?

CATERING ESTABLISHMENTS (RATION BOOKS).

Sir William Davison: asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food whether he is aware that the Ministry have recently issued an order directing that ration books must be deposited with the management of catering establishments whereas the Board of Trade have issued an order stating that ration books must Be handed over to guests wishing to make purchases of clothing; and whether he will inform the House how the management of such establishments can mark off food coupons if the owner complies with the direction of the Board of Trade?

Major Lloyd George: The answer to the first part of the Question is in the negative. The Rationing Order dated 27th December, 1939, provides that it is the duty of the resident in a catering establishment to produce his ration book to the management in order that the appropriate coupons may be cancelled. In practice, as a matter of convenience, the books are often handed over to the management and collected by the resident when he leaves. As, however, the management only requires to deal with the appropriate coupons once a week I do not appreciate the difficulty which my hon. and gallant Friend has in mind.

Sir W. Davison: Is the Minister aware that there is great difficulty for people who have a number of guests in their houses in keeping to his directions to keep the ration books so as to obtain the rations?

Major Lloyd George: I have come across these difficulties in the last few days and I will inquire into the matter further.

CHEESE.

Mr. Parker: asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food whether arrangements will be made to allow consumers the option of either taking the proposed extra cheese ration or of retaining the present butter ration?

Major Lloyd George: No, Sir. The proposal of my hon. Friend is impracticable.

Mr. Parker: Why does the Minister think this is an impracticable step to take?

Major Lloyd George: When people change their minds it becomes very difficult to deal with these matters.

"BLACK MARKET"

Sir Percy Hurd: asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food what exact meaning is given to the official term "black market"; and what steps are being taken to deal with it?

Major Lloyd George: The term "black market" is in common use as descriptive of surreptitious transactions in which commodities have been bought or sold at prices above those prescribed by the appropriate orders. The organisation to deal with this evil, so far as foodstuffs are concerned, is being strengthened, but it is obviously not in the public interest that I should indicate in what manner.

Captain Lyons: As there has been a black market for a long time in every commodity that the Ministry has controlled, will the hon. and gallant Gentleman take steps to see that no black market starts on Monday?

Major Lloyd George: I shall be glad if my hon. and gallant Friend can tell me how to stop it. No black market would exist in this country if consumers did not support it.

Mr. G. Strauss: Will the Minister keep a special eye on the street markets of London, which are difficult to control?

Major Lloyd George: My hon. Friend will appreciate the enormous difficulty involved.

POTATOES (PAYMENT TO FARMERS).

Mr. de Rothschild: asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food whether he is aware that a large number of farmers who have sold potatoes to the Ministry have not yet been paid, although in some cases delivery was made as early as February; that applications to the headquarters of the Ministry's potato section have been ineffective; and whether, in order to avoid financial hardship to small growers, he will take steps to see that the terms of the contracts, which provide for payment within 10 days of delivery, are in future strictly adhered to?

Major Lloyd George: If my hon. Friend would be good enough to put this Question down for answer later, when the inquiries now being made have been completed, I shall be in a position to give him a full reply.

HERRING (DESTRUCTION).

Captain Lyons: asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food whether his attention has been called to the dumping into the sea at a northern port, about 17th June, of a large catch of herring; what are the circumstances of the incident; why no steps were taken to acquire the fish by the Ministry; why no action was taken by the local food committee to obtain the fish for distribution; and what instructions have been given to prevent any further similar waste of foodstuffs?

Major Lloyd George: The fish in question was in such poor condition that it could not be marketed or pickled for future use. Had the vessels concerned landed their catch at the usual ports the difficulty would not have arisen, and the attention of the owners' association is being drawn to this point.

Captain Lyons: Was the whole of this fish unusable?

Major Lloyd George: Much was unusable, but the public were allowed to take away free of charge as many of the edible fish as they wished.

Mr. Malcolm MacMillan: Is the Minister aware that some of the fishermen said that the fish had been distributed locally, when a lot of it might have been used?

Major Lloyd George: I have already said that it was distributed free.

ORANGES.

Mr. Parker: asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food why profits of up to 3s. per case have been allowed recently to Covent Garden firms for handling oranges; why oranges come on to the market at all; and whether he will make his own arrangements to supply oranges through local authorities to hospitals, schools and fruiterers without any middlemen's profits?

Major Lloyd George: The margin provided for a wholesale merchant in the Oranges (Maximum Prices) Order, 1940, for South African and Rhodesian oranges, which are the only oranges recently imported into this country, is 2s. 3d. or 2s. 6d. per case, according to weight. This is a gross margin and is not excessive. I have no reason to think that the cost of distribution through local authorities would be less.

FRUIT PRESERVATION.

Sir John Jarvis: asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food whether, in view of the increasing dissatisfaction of home fruit producers at being asked to part with their own fruit for the making of jam, which they are not permitted to consume, he will consider a proposal whereby such growers, upon sending a reasonable proportion of their produce to the collecting centres, shall receive vouchers in exchange for their jam coupons enabling them to obtain a reasonable amount of sugar to make their own jam in their own way with the remainder of their own fruit?

Major Lloyd George: I would refer my hon. Friend to the reply given to a similar Question by my hon. Friend the Member for Romford (Mr. Parker) on 18th June. My hon. Friend will doubtless have seen the announcement that sugar will be released in time for the stone-fruit crop to be used for domestic jam making.

Sir J. Jarvis: Does the Minister recognise the importance of doing something to see that we use all the soft fruit, and will he consider some simple and practicable scheme whereby producers can make some of their own fruit into jam?

Major Lloyd George: We appreciate that people would like to make their own jam, and I have said before that the only thing that prevents our assisting them is the supply of sugar.

RATIONING ORDER OFFENCES.

Mr. Thorne: asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food whether he can give any information with regard to the men, Richard Richards, of Portobello Road, Kensington, and William Webb, of Brassie Avenue, Acton, who were found with large sacks of meat in their car contrary to the food rationing Order?

Major Lloyd George: Both men mentioned were recently convicted of offences against the rationing Order. Richard Richards was fined £50 and ordered to pay 15 guineas costs, and William Webb was fined £10 and ordered to pay five guineas costs.

Oral Answers to Questions — MINISTRY OF SUPPLY.

SHELL FACTORY EMPLOYÉ (DISMISSAL).

Mr. Ness Edwards: asked the Minister of Supply whether he has now concluded his promised inquiries into the dismissal of a fourth-class examiner at a South Wales shell factory; and, if so, what are his conclusions?

The Minister of Supply (Sir Andrew Duncan): I informed the hon. Member on the 28th May of the result of my inquiries. The fourth-class examiner to whom he refers was one of several discharged because of a reduction in examination work. The selection of the examiners retained was based solely on an appraisal of their relative usefulness to the inspection department. The examiner in question had been given an opportunity of acquiring experience in final examination work, but had declined to take it.

Mr. Edwards: Has any opportunity been given to the man to state his side of the case? Is the Minister aware that the general feeling in the district is that this man has been deliberately victimised?

Sir A. Duncan: I am sorry if there is any opinion of that kind, because the inquiry which I have made does not support it. If the hon. Gentleman can give me any further details, I shall be glad to look into them.

Mr. Edwards: Has not the Minister received from me a number of statements?

Sir A. Duncan: I have replied to all the statements I have received from the hon. Gentleman.

Mr. Edwards: In view of the unsatisfactory nature of the reply, I beg to give notice that I shall raise the matter at an early opportunity.

BEDSTEAD CONTRACT.

Mr. Higgs: asked the Minister of Supply why, out of a recent contract for approximately 100,000 Mark III folding bedsteads, only 17,000 were placed with associated firms in the Birmingham area, having regard to the fact that approximately 85 per cent. of the established trade is in that area and experienced workpeople not suited to other trades are at present not fully employed?

Sir A. Duncan: The restriction of the orders placed with the Birmingham firms was due to man-power requirements in the Birmingham area. The Metallic Bedstead Manufacturers' Association were informed of the proposed restriction before the orders were placed.

Mr. Higgs: Is the Minister aware that labour has been imported into Birmingham? Could not local labour be brought in, to save such transfer of labour?

Sir A. Duncan: A great many of the firms are engaged on important Government work.

Mr. Higgs: Are there not still vacancies for the work in Birmingham?

Oral Answers to Questions — NATIONAL WAR EFFORT.

BUILDING INDUSTRY.

Major Vyvyan Adams: asked the Minister of Labour on what form firms conducting work which they consider is of national importance in the building industry should apply for registration as protected establishments?

The Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Labour (Mr. Tomlinson): I would refer my hon. and gallant Friend to the reply given to the hon. Member for Stratford (Mr. Groves) on 10th June, of which I am sending him a copy.

INDIAN TRAINEES.

Mr. Sorensen: asked the Minister of Labour whether he is satisfied that Indian trainees in this country are receiving, or will receive, adequate and suitable clothing, appropriate diet and due recognition that they are as entitled to such civil liberties and status as are enjoyed by our own British citizens?

Mr. Tomlinson: Yes, Sir.

Mr. Sorensen: Does the hon. Gentleman appreciate the fact that while these trainees warmly appreciate the welcome they have received from people in this country, they have a certain cause for complaint against the assumption that they are merely political juveniles?

Mr. Tomlinson: Yes, Sir. Difficulties may have arisen, but I think that if my hon. Friend will make inquiries, he will find they have been satisfactorily dealt with.

Captain John Dugdale: Will the hon. Gentleman assure the House that these

facilities will also be extended to any trainees coming from all our Colonies?

Mr. Tomlinson: Yes, Sir, it is intended to extend these facilities to all who come here for this purpose.

Oral Answers to Questions — PRIVILEGE (HIGHLANDS DEVELOPMENT LEAGUE).

The Chairman of Ways and Means (Sir Dennis Herbert): I am sorry to have to occupy the attention of the House for what I hope will be only a few minutes, but in the performance of my duties as Chairman of Ways and Means in connection with Private Bill legislation, I have to inform the House of certain facts and to submit to you, Sir, my contention that they establish a prima facie case of Privilege, and if you take that view. I shall move the formal Motion that the matter be referred to the Committee of Privileges.
The matter arises in connection with the Grampian Electricity Supply (Scotland) Order in respect of which a Confirmation Bill was placed on the Order Paper yesterday. On the nth of this month there came to my hand a circular printed letter addressed to all Members of Parliament, which is the document complained of, and which therefore must be read in full. I am advised that upon this occasion it will be proper and convenient that I should read it—it is not very long—and hand it in to the Clerk at the Table afterwards. This is the document. It is headed:
Highlands Development League, 
100. West George Street, 
Glasgow, C.2. 
20th May 1941.
To all Members of Parliament.

GRAMPIAN ELECTRICITY SUPPLY BILL, 1941. GLEN AFFRIC SCHEME.

We understand that the above Order, having with certain modifications been approved by the Commission of Inquiry to which it was recently submitted, is now to be laid before Parliament as a confirmation Bill. The Highland Development League, which for years past has been actively concerned with measures for the improvement of living conditions in the Scottish Highlands, was, in common with many others who have the interest. of the Highlanders at heart, strongly opposed to this Measure. Ever since the publication of the draft Order last August, the Council of our League have examined it from time to time with great care and have been greatly perturbed, not only by the un-timeliness of its introduction, when most of


[The Chairman of Ways and Means.] the Highland men whose future is affected are absent from their homes on military service"—
and then come the important words:
 not only by the seeming irregularities in the procedure by which it has been advanced to its present Parliamentary stage, but most of all by the prejudicial effect which it will have on the future development of the Highlands. In support of our views on that point we send you the accompanying pamphlet and respectfully ask you to give careful attention to its contents.
Your obedient Servants, On behalf of the Highlands Development League, 
LACHLAN GRANT, President.
T. M. MURCHISON, Vice-President.
DONALD MACKAY, Clerk and Treasurer
When I read that, my mind at once turned to the expression:
seeming irregularities in the procedure by which it has been advanced to its present Parliamentary stage
It seemed to me probable, and it has since turned out that I was right, that these alleged '' seeming irregularities '' had reference to the conduct of the Lord Chairman in another place and the Chairman of Ways and Means of the House of Commons in referring this Order to a Scottish Commission under the Private Legislation (Scotland) Act, 1936, and also to the conduct of the two Members of the House of Commons who were two of the Commissioners who conducted this inquiry. But as I felt that there was a possibility that I might be mistaken, I thought the proper course was to write a letter, which I did in identical terms to all three signatories of that letter. I wrote them that my attention had just been called to their communication and wrote
in view of those words, and in view of the apparently improper allegation contained in those words, I have to ask you before I take any other steps to write to me explaining what is intended by those words ' seeming irregularities in the procedure ' and making any further observations you may desire thereon
To that I received a very long reply, which I do not think the House will want me to read, but I must read just a short part of it and tell the House the gist of the letter.
We are favoured with your letter of the nth inst. addressed to each of us in identical terms, in which you refer to words used in the League's letter of 20th May to all Members of Parliament, in particular to the words ' not only by the seeming irregularities in the procedure by which it has been advanced to its present parliamentary stage.' We would respectfully assure you, Sir, that no improper

allegation is intended or contained in those words, and if the phrase in question seems to you to carry such implication, we much regret it and beg to tender our apologies
If the letter had stopped there, I think— I may have been wrong—that I should not have troubled the House on the matter at all; but, unfortunately, the letter proceeds at very considerable length to explain that what was intended was what I had supposed, a certain reflection upon the conduct of the Lord Chairman and the Chairman of Ways and Means, and upon the conduct of the Members of the Commission, two of whom are Members of this House. They not only repeat these allegations, or rather set them out in detail, but they justify them, or attempt to justify them, and beyond that I need not perhaps make any further reference to that letter.

Mr. Benjamin Smith: I think it would be as well if the House were informed of the justification to which the Chairman has referred.

The Chairman of Ways and Means: I think that is probably, if I may suggest it, a matter which, if Mr. Speaker gives the decision which I invited him to do, will be for the consideration by the Committee of Privileges. I may say that, in the first place, they misquote or incorrectly quote the Scottish Procedure Act referred to and they also show a certain ignorance in regard to other matters of law to which they refer. As I have said, this undoubtedly is a case of making somewhat serious and definite reflections upon the conduct of the Lord Chairman, who is in another place, and with whom, of course, we are not concerned, upon the Chairman of Ways and Means, as an officer of this House, and on Members of this House, sitting as Members of the Scottish Commission.
I do not place importance in this case upon the gravity, or otherwise, or, may I say, the degree of turpitude of this offence, if an offence has been committed, but the case is of very great importance as a matter of principle for this reason: This Scottish private legislation procedure is a comparatively modern innovation, and I believe this is the first time on which any question has ever arisen of reflections of this kind being made on Members of this House sitting as Members on one of these Scottish Commissions; and the House will realise at once that it would be very difficult to expect hon. Members of this House


to undertake the very responsible, and often very laborious, duties of sitting on Commissions of this kind unless they feel that they have the protection which the House always accords to its Members in the discharge of their duties. Therefore, it does appear to me that it is, as I say, a case of very great importance, which should be referred to the Committee of Privileges, in order, as I hope, that the House may establish definitely that Members sitting on these Commissions are entitled to the same protection as is given to them in other cases when carrying out their duties as Members of Parliament. I think I need add nothing more, and if you decide, Mr. Speaker, that there is a prima facie case, then, I will merely move the formal Motion that the matter be referred to the Committee of Privileges.

Mr. A. Bevan: On a point of Order. I understand it is the contention that a prima facie case has been made out of a breach of Privilege. It is necessary, in my submission, before you, Mr. Speaker, give your Ruling, that the grounds upon which that is based shall be stated to the House. The only thing so far in support of what has been said has been the reading of a statement, subsequently withdrawn and apologised for. Then the Chairman of Ways and Means has directed our attention to a statement which he has not placed before the House and which therefore cannot, in my respectful submission, be given a Ruling upon until the House itself has heard it.

The Chairman of Ways and Means: I am perfectly prepared, though I should be sorry to have to do it, to read the whole of the second letter to which I referred, but I venture most respectfully to submit to the House that, with the explanation which I have given, it is sufficient that I have read the original offending document, if I may so call it, which contains words calculated to cast reflections upon an officer and Members of this House in the performance of their Parliamentary duties, and I take the longer letter as merely amplifying the original document and giving the case of those who, if this matter goes before the Committee of Privileges, will be called upon by that Committee to justify their action.

Mr. Bevan: Further to that point of Order. I do not want to appear to be pedantic, but it would be an extraordinary piece of Parliamentary proce-

dure if the House set up a Committee of Privileges on a matter because it is the opinion of the Chairman of Ways and Means that a breach of Privilege has in fact occurred. It is necessary for the charge to be made.

The Chairman of Ways and Means: If I may be allowed to say so, the hon. Member is wrong. I have done nothing but submit to Mr. Speaker a question of whether there is a prima facie case, and I await his decision.

Mr. Neil Maclean: Is it not the case that the three individuals who have signed the letter have withdrawn the words of which the Chairman of Ways and Means properly complained, and consequently, having withdrawn those words, those words cannot be submitted to the Committee of Privileges? What the Chairman of Ways and Means has said is that they go on, in a subsequent letter in which they have withdrawn the words complained of, to add other words which he considers to be at least equally offensive as regards a breach of Privilege. But he has not placed those words before the House; he has not read those words which he complains are an added breach of Privilege. Consequently this House is being asked to submit to the Committee of Privileges something it has not yet heard which has been alleged to be a breach of Privilege. I put this point to the Chairman of Ways and Means. I am not discussing the Glen Affric Bill, but there is a great deal of very adverse criticism and a keen sense of uneasiness at the manner in which this Commission held its sittings. I am making no allegations against the Members of the Com mission, but the fact that its proceedings were held in secret, against most precedents —

The Prime Minister: On a point of Order. Is it not the practice, when a Motion raising a question of Privilege has been moved, that the Chair pronounces upon it at once?

Mr. Speaker: That is so, and it was my intention to do so. I was merely waiting to know whether the matter would be a little more clearly explained so that Members would understand it better, but I am prepared to make up my mind upon it now.

Mr. Buchanan: I wish to submit a point of Order. The hon. Member for


Govan (Mr. Maclean) referred to the Commission sitting in private, as though the Members of the Commission were responsible for that.

Mr. Maclean: No.

Mr. Buchanan: I am putting my point.

Mr. Maclean: You are misrepresenting my point.

Mr. Buchanan: I will put my point of Order. I have no wish to argue it here, but as a member of this Commission I am not going to have any imputation, direct or indirect, placed upon me or my conduct as a member of that body.

Mr. Maclean: I made no imputation against any member of the Commission. I made that clear, as the OFFICIAL REPORT will show. I did not say whether they were acting beyond their functions or not.

Mr. Buchanan: We did not decide to sit in private. We had no power.

Mr. Maclean: I merely put forward the fact that unlike the proceedings in most cases of Scottish Private Bills submitted to a Commission, this Commission's meetings were held in private.

Mr. Buchanan: We did not do it. It was the Secretary of State for Scotland who ordered it.

Mr. Speaker: The question which I am asked to decide is whether a prima facie case has been made out that a breach of Privilege has been committed. This is a rather difficult and complicated case, but, undoubtedly, a matter of principle is involved. Members of this House have to carry out their duties, very often in difficult circumstances and on very controversial questions, and it would not be right if we took no notice whatever, when Members are persecuted by outsiders, no matter how interested those outsiders may be in the business affected. On that matter of principle, I think it only right that the House should order an inquiry. As I say, I think that Members are undoubtedly entitled to protection in the discharge of their duties. In this case, I consider that a prima facie case has been made out that a breach of Privilege has been committed.

The Chairman of Ways and Means: I beg to move, "That the Matter of the Complaint be referred to the Committee of Privileges"

Question put, and agreed to.

Major Neven-Spence: Since the con duct of the Commission has been mentioned, would I be in Order as Chair man —

Hon. Members: Order.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.

Ordered,
That this day, notwithstanding anything in Standing Order No. 14 the Report stage of the Supplementary Vote of Credit, 1941, and of Ways and Means [24th June] may be taken before the time appointed for the interruption of Business

Ordered,
That the Proceedings on any Motion for the Adjournment of the House that may be moved by a Minister of the Crown at this day's Sitting be exempted from the provisions of the Standing Order (Sittings of the House)" — [The Prime Minister.]

Preamble

[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair.]

Orders of the Day — SUPPLY.

[11TH ALLOTTED DAY.]

Considered in Committee

[Sir DENNIS HERBERT in the Chair.]

CIVIL ESTIMATES, 1941.

UNCLASSIFIED SERVICES.

MINISTRY OF SHIPPING.

Motion made, and Question proposed,
That a sum, not exceeding £90, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1942, for the salaries and expenses of the Ministry of Shipping" — [Note. — £10 has been voted on account.]

Motion made, and Question, "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again, "put, and agreed to. — [Mr. James Stuart.]

Committee report Progress; to sit again upon the next Sitting Day.

REPORT [24TH JUNE].

SUPPLEMENTARY VOTE OF CREDIT, 1941.

(EXPENDITURE ARISING OUT OF THE WAR.)

Resolution reported:
That a Supplementary sum, not exceeding £1,000,000,000, be granted to His Majesty, towards defraying the expenses which may be incurred during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1942, for general Navy, Army and Air Services and for the Ministry of Supply in so far as specific provision is not made therefor by Parliament, for securing the public safety, the defence of the realm, the maintenance of public order and the efficient prosecution of the war, for maintaining supplies and services essential to the life of the

community and generally for all expenses, beyond those provided for in the ordinary Grants of Parliament, arising out of the existence of a state of war

Resolution agreed to.

Orders of the Day — WAYS AND MEANS.

REPORT [24th June].

Resolution reported:
That, towards making good the Supply granted to His Majesty for the service of the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1942, the sum of £1,000,000,000 be granted out of the Consolidated Fund of the United Kingdom

Resolution agreed to.

Bill ordered to be brought in upon the said Resolution by the Chairman of Ways and Means, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and Captain Crookshank.

CONSOLIDATED FUND (NO. 3) BILL,

"to apply a sum out of the Consolidated Fund to the service of the year ending on the thirty-first day of March, one thousand nine hundred and forty-two," presented accordingly, and read the First time; to be read a Second time upon the next Sitting Day, and to be printed. [Bill 40.]

Orders of the Day — SECRET SESSION.

Notice taken, that Strangers were present.

Whereupon Mr. SPEAKER, pursuant to Standing Order No. 89, put the Question,"That Strangers be ordered to withdraw"

Question agreed to.

Strangers withdrew accordingly.

[The remainder of the Sitting was in Secret Session.]